tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post5690033240907714217..comments2023-11-09T14:15:40.111+02:00Comments on Fatima and Ahmed's Son: Should the ANC Sue Artist Ayanda Mabulu for Portraying Zuma's Penis as Injured? And yes it is Zuma's penis that is depicted!Ridwanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16758153484699728802noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-86726438794440868182012-08-29T13:45:27.846+02:002012-08-29T13:45:27.846+02:00First of all let us leave politics out of this for...First of all let us leave politics out of this for a second. These paintings are disrespectfull whether there are that of Zuma, ET, who ever the person might be. I'm pretty sure that all culture teaches respect for other people. I am christian and my bible teaches me to respect people, Ephesians 6:1-4, Proverbs 1:8-9 naming just a few, I trust the Quran teaches about respect as well and all other religios. Without respect nothing can come right. Just imagine if this was your father being disgraced like that? As for the race issue, South Africa went through traumatic times during apartheid both blacks and whites. They should have been a program where people can go for therapy to overcome the anger, hurt and trauma they went through. So basicaly the race issue will nover be resolved. May God deliver His people from such anger.Mbali Thabethenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-43768138915952517592012-05-29T23:01:56.142+02:002012-05-29T23:01:56.142+02:00Sorry in advance for my long comment
@Ridwan, I ...Sorry in advance for my long comment <br /><br />@Ridwan, I believe speaking up against racism is the first step in reaching that alternate! Take a read...<br /><br />• Argument for a cohesive African or at least South African Black viewpoint/culture/philosophy<br /><br />Question: Does there exist a different way of thinking that is common to certain groups and can it be drawn that agreement on/similarities in how we interpret and use symbolic representations in society could be attributed to differences in culture/philosophy.<br /><br />1. If the there are two groups and the majority of the members of the first group (for argument’s sake lets call them the Blues) believe that the painting has a racially derogatory meaning and this group just happens to be comprised of the most part of Africans. <br />2. On the other hand you have a second groups (we will call them the Blues) that believes that the painting is harmless and it can be said that mostly members of this group also do not seem to understand the hurt or anger felt by the Blues and this group is made up predominantly of White/non African Blacks – and I think there might be a number who believe that this has been the trend.<br />3. If at all its possible to distinguish between the Reds and the Blues by classifying them by their tendency to agree on the interpretation of or giving meaning to the symbolism contained in this painting. Is it not possible that this difference could be due to their differing cultural beliefs and assumptions or strongly held beliefs? <br />4. If so is this not in itself an indication that there is a common way of perceiving the world, interpreting it, giving meaning to symbols, of communication, interaction, organisation of society and dare I say a different philosophy/culture /ideology existing between the two groups?<br /><br />• Argument against Biological Determinism<br /><br />Question: When the ANC as a group or any other African Blacks/Non-African Blacks, refer to behaviour as racist and primarily attribute this behaviour/actions to Whites/non-African Blacks, does this naturally imply they believe that whites/non-African Blacks are genetically/biologically predisposed towards being racist.<br /><br />• I believe that the following questions can possibly present a different view. <br />1. To what can the lack of understanding by the Reds be attributed? Is it due to a perception that the Reds’ view is superior and the only view that matters? That the Blues’ views and values are infantile, irrational etc. as judged by or according to the Reds’ superior standards?<br />2. On a more practical level, our ignorance about each other; how each group feels, thinks, acts and believes an indication of intolerance amongst South Africans? And quite possibly fuelling the view that not all South Africans are not working equally hard at promoting cohesion and reconciliation?<br />3. Is this perceived intolerance attributed to biology or a history of racism or an ideology that promotes superiority of one culture over another – are people really racist just because they are white and do people believe this? That of course being the only condition, I believe, for assuming that there exists a racial biological determinism. And interestingly enough, biological determinism is the same argument some racists use for believing that Blacks are inferior – that they just were made so!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-85556994665559108202012-05-29T16:40:27.421+02:002012-05-29T16:40:27.421+02:00Hi Nic:
Thank you kindly for taking time to expre...Hi Nic:<br /><br />Thank you kindly for taking time to express your thinking here.<br /><br />It is important for the nation to have these discussions and to ask the questions you pose.<br /><br />There is no advance in blame as Robert Sobukwe said when he was asked if he hates white people.<br /><br />He went on to say that he did not hate white people but he abhorred the apartheid system.<br /><br />There is a lot of sense in that thinking even today when more than 45 years have passed since he made the comments in an interview with an Australian journalist.<br /><br />We are stuck in a race centered quagmire because the system still privileges race as an ordering system.<br /><br />Instead of deconstructing race the post era has repositioned its relevance even to the extent that it is common to essentialize what it means to be and African (who can forget the "who is an African?" debate of recent times)<br /><br />That debate was reinvigorated by the assumption that the ANC can define what is an African/African culture in the Murray furore.<br /><br />They can't and should spend more time recognizing the false consciousness (as Marx would say) that underscores their thinking on the matter.<br /><br />Professor Neville Alexander spends a lot of time making this point and warning us that we will not solve racism until race is made irrelevant (we should not just be dissuaded just because it seems unreasonable to subvert the artificial concept of race).<br /><br />The furor in the Murray case is as Justice Malala pointed out last Sunday in an article - it is as he said a matter of Zuma playing victim for political purposes.<br /><br />I have made that same argument here and it is not surprising to me that Zuma's candidacy for a second term has improved so much.<br /><br />In closing I want also to say that you are not alone in your frustration.<br /><br />Many black and brown and other young folks continue to raise their voices for an alternative reality (and not just in South Africa).<br /><br />I grew up under apartheid and carry its scars deep but believe that Sobukwe was prophetic in telling us to drop the political blame game.<br /><br />This is of course not to say that folks should not be cognizant of the excesses of the past and its skewed hold on the present.<br /><br />We all carry the burden to change our condition.<br /><br />Peace to you,<br />RidwanRidwanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16758153484699728802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-60203830358787161992012-05-29T15:20:47.377+02:002012-05-29T15:20:47.377+02:00I am a young white male, was not old enough during...I am a young white male, was not old enough during apartheid to know that what was happening was wrong. I did not willingly partake in any racist activities as I was too young. I now find myself being blamed and called a racist because of the mistakes that other, more closed minded people have made, people who I am in no way associated with.<br /><br />I personally think that black South Africans are amoungst friendliest and charming people in the world.<br /><br />The problem is that Black South Africans (remember, I am not a racist) are angry and the logical thing is to blame the people initially resposible. I myself have a lot of anger and hatered for the apartheid government. The only problem is that 18 years have passed and that government is not in power anymore. Are we as white people to blame because the new government has failed their followers? I find that to be very unfair, no matter which way you look at it. Also I feel that there is this perception that the white man's focus is to inhibit the black man' growth in society. I think take a look at who is running the country and who promised the world but did not deliver.<br /><br />With regards to this painting and the uproar associated with it. I believe that there are so many more pressing issues that we as South Africans face, be us Black, White, Indian or Asian. Think of our education and Health Care systems, aren't those more important issues than a white guy paining our presidents penis?<br /><br />Blame the past as much as you can but it will never help your future.<br /><br />We have to come to terms with the fact that we ALL come from a very horrid and dark past. If we cannot learn to accept what has happened in the past we will not be able to create a better future for all of us.<br /><br />thanks<br /><br />Tired of being blammed.Nic the Jewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-60893245304928954272012-05-27T14:09:13.181+02:002012-05-27T14:09:13.181+02:00On the recurring theme of 'Africans respect th...On the recurring theme of 'Africans respect their elders, culturally', can anyone explain to me then why (many) Africans kill many of) the elderly as 'accused witches' ... ? This is a well-known phenomenon in South Africa.... Is this African culture? That one someone gets too elderly, and maybe a bit senile, that they are then witches and must be killed?Arlette Franksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-91504749963207048682012-05-24T17:37:25.572+02:002012-05-24T17:37:25.572+02:00Hi mesmerised:
I don't think it was petulant ...Hi mesmerised:<br /><br />I don't think it was petulant if by that it is meant that Zuma's Advocate Gcina Malindi acted childish and threw a tantrum.<br /><br />I do however see that the outcome of the breakdown has been a stalling of the process and given the weakness of the overall case this is in the favour of the ANC.<br /><br />I also think we need to move the discussion somewhat further and recognize how much this case is strengthening Zuma's position in the course toward a second term.<br /><br />It is not unreasonable to think that though Zuma may be offended by the painting the case that has been made is influencing political sentiments toward Zuma.<br /><br />I am saying that Zuma has manipulated the case to strengthen his position inside the ANC and among ANC supporters.<br /><br />This is dangerous territory particularly in the manner that the issue has been racialized.<br /><br />It makes me wonder if the ANC can ever mount a political campaign without dredging up racialized strawmen/women.<br /><br />Already some fools like Enoch Mthembu of the Shembe Church have called for stoning Murray to death.<br /><br />To which the ANC has said nothing though the Johannesburg High Court has granted an interdict to force him to retract his hateful words.<br /><br />Mthembu is not alone in issuing death threats.<br /><br />And now Blade Nzimande is calling for a boycott of City Press - all of this speaks to a creeping move toward authoritarian censorship and folks should be worried.<br /><br />Is Blade not a minister and therefore should he not be more circumspect about advocating boycotts?<br /><br />Dunno. But I think so. <br /><br />Anuway, in the terms above I can see reason to believe that the advocate what playing an orchestrated game.<br /><br />Peace,<br />RidwanRidwanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16758153484699728802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-13916317613596470902012-05-24T17:01:21.632+02:002012-05-24T17:01:21.632+02:00@ LWETHU M... it amazes me that you fail to see th...@ LWETHU M... it amazes me that you fail to see the bland hypocrisy for you own comment. Have white South Africans not just spent the last 3 years listeneing to this presiedent, amongst numerous others in the ruling junta, sing songs that talk of killing others...and this all done in the name of a cultural heritage. Goodness knows what saw of heritage that is that takes pleasure from the singing of the killing of others. But white people must just put up and shut up in your opinion. I fthere is an increase in vitriol from white people see it as a direct result of the mocking call for blacks to kill white people. Take off your blinkers...whether you like it or not, Africa is a part of a global community...and South Africa is a a reflection of many of those cultures coming together. Traditional "African culture" is not and never will be the singular culture in South Africa. Fortunately an increasingly educated young South Africans of all races don't even aspire to that anymore. They seek modernity and opportunityAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-20607308112267868132012-05-24T16:59:45.414+02:002012-05-24T16:59:45.414+02:00Is it your opinion that JZ's advocate bit off...Is it your opinion that JZ's advocate bit off more than he could chew, was brought to this realization by the judge and emotions then kicked in. I doubt the behaviour was petulent or was it?mesmerisedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07142067324338148649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-32810058488148575062012-05-24T16:18:57.800+02:002012-05-24T16:18:57.800+02:00The artist himself said that he was depicting Zuma...The artist himself said that he was depicting Zuma and his disrespect for the nation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-24838121180813998722012-05-24T16:17:56.375+02:002012-05-24T16:17:56.375+02:00Hi Nosi:
Some of the confusion here goes back to ...Hi Nosi:<br /><br />Some of the confusion here goes back to the post above. <br /><br />I initially thought it was Zuma but then a reader (Karen) had found some discussion elsewhere that said it was not Zuma.<br /><br />So I retracted my assertion.<br /><br />But then Ayesha posted a comment here informing us that Mabulu in fact says the portrait includes Zuma with his penis in a crutch.<br /><br />So, I can now confirm that given Mabulu's own words are on record at Worldart the man with his penis in a crutch is intended to be President Zuma.<br /><br />Hope this clarifies it all for you.<br /><br />Thanks for looking in.<br /><br />Peace,<br />RidwanRidwanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16758153484699728802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-40919142424892514382012-05-24T16:11:06.231+02:002012-05-24T16:11:06.231+02:00I read about the advocate breaking down and I unde...I read about the advocate breaking down and I understand that television coverage of the incident has been prohibited by the high court.<br /><br />I am not entirely sure what to make of it but at one level it smacks of orchestrated drama.<br /><br />Now I know some folks will say that the case has dredged up sad memories and ill feelings and I should be more sympathetic.<br /><br />Perhaps.<br /><br />I can understand that sentiment to an extent but the matter is also about professionalism and dealing with the issues at hand.<br /><br />This case is not about the apartheid past even though it unavoidably conjures up such images and other related issues.<br /><br />In legal terms, this case is about section 16 of the South African constitution.<br /><br />A cut and dry matter that already looks 'ugly' for the ANC after one judge commented it would be difficult to ban the painting and that the issue of personal dignity is a matter pertaining to "persons" and not the president's office.<br /><br />So, the skeptic in me says this was probably about grandstanding - and it seems to have been successful with the case now on indefinite hold (postponement).<br /><br />In the meantime debates will get uglier and the principles that should have been confirmed today will be more clouded than ever.<br /><br />In a more reasonable world I would have expected the court to throw out this application and even declare it a nuisance and misreading of the constitution.<br /><br />I am hoping that at least when the court reconvenes this ugly episode will be set aside in the interest of freedom of speech for all South Africans.<br /><br />If not - my opinion of the rule of law in post-apartheid South Africa will be dealt another serious blow.<br /><br />Onward! <br />RidwanRidwanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16758153484699728802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-80361623525990265642012-05-24T15:51:50.410+02:002012-05-24T15:51:50.410+02:00Confusion: Please could you clarify for me if the ...Confusion: Please could you clarify for me if the man depicted with his penis in a crutch is or isnt Zuma? I just read an article in http://www.worldart.co.za/news/article.asp?ID=126 and I am now confused.Nosi, Grahamstownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-63048250031327221722012-05-24T15:49:17.204+02:002012-05-24T15:49:17.204+02:00What are your thoughts on the Advocate breaking ...What are your thoughts on the Advocate breaking down in tears!!!!! during the hearing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-92225489249246582222012-05-24T14:04:48.283+02:002012-05-24T14:04:48.283+02:00KayT I guess the BEE is the same as what is happen...KayT I guess the BEE is the same as what is happening in the private sector where whites are employed without qualifications and experienced. I've worked with lots of what people who were employed on the basis that they'll learn, and at the end puting more pressure on me to teach them basics. Why whites feels that a black man needs to be educated to be able to do a task assigned to him and a white man doesn't because he's capable of learning quickly. Lastly, your statement "So callled blacks" show that you racists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-12675745411249564802012-05-24T12:00:28.392+02:002012-05-24T12:00:28.392+02:00Its actually sad on all accounts that as South Afr...Its actually sad on all accounts that as South Africans with all our Laws and Rights we cannot appreciate one others concept and views of life. Is that not a right. the President is contradicting himself his attitde and manner prior to Presidency was about Freedom of expression and Rights. Is his rights not the reason he is not in prison?<br />Personal opinion!!!!!!<br />But what is sad that after so many years of a democratic country we still resort to racism!!!!!! will it ever end, or will that the reason and excuse whenever things dont go our way.Keressanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-42364162591864927322012-05-24T11:45:10.276+02:002012-05-24T11:45:10.276+02:00What confuses me is that the "new" pictu...What confuses me is that the "new" picture of our esteemed Leader is said to be "racist", how does that make any sense. If you look at the picuture painted by Ayanda, right infront is a "Pig" with the old South African flag on its ASS. <br /><br />Also if you look at the painting by Ayanda, he is not only depicting JZ, but a heard of SA ICONS. <br /><br />How do you argue this point to a judge that only his character is being questioned here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-13058300796316281782012-05-24T10:29:35.289+02:002012-05-24T10:29:35.289+02:00In my personal opinion,reason why Brett's pain...In my personal opinion,reason why Brett's painting is making such a stir is that it was done by a white person,hence nothing was said abut Ayanda's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-83791870155297493602012-05-23T09:39:03.884+02:002012-05-23T09:39:03.884+02:00"Attack is the best form of defence.
I perso..."Attack is the best form of defence.<br /><br />I personally think that the hullabaloo is all smoke an mirrors."<br /><br />Whatever the the source of misguided thinking and action on this issue the ANC has proved themselves to be 'creeping' towards a greater patriarchal based conservatism and that is a scary thing.<br /><br />I am also worried that they are not being held responsible for fomenting the fallout - the destruction of the painting and the death threats: both of which are illegal and hardly what you expect from a movement/party that is supposedly bent on reconciling our nation.<br /><br />Thanks for your comment.<br /><br />Peace.<br />RidwanRidwanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16758153484699728802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-31525264506484385352012-05-23T09:33:21.571+02:002012-05-23T09:33:21.571+02:00Hi Karen McKee:
You relayed information here out ...Hi Karen McKee:<br /><br />You relayed information here out of good faith and I appreciate your contribution.<br /><br />Your apology is not necessary but greatly appreciated.<br /><br />It just shows that interpreting art should be a matter of careful engagement and not the knee-jerk reaction that the ANC and others have layered over Murray.<br /><br />Mabulu has answered many of the objections raised by the ANC.<br /><br />It will be interesting to see what happens on Thursday especially now with the precedent of Mabulu's depiction.<br /><br />Best wishes Karen.<br /><br />RidwanRidwanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16758153484699728802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-73362731140181051202012-05-23T09:14:50.512+02:002012-05-23T09:14:50.512+02:00Attack is the best form of defence.
I personally ...Attack is the best form of defence.<br /><br />I personally think that the hullabaloo is all smoke an mirrors. <br /><br />Last week the DA showed the ANC leadership up for being weak and allowing a trade union, that represents a minority of South African citizens may I add, to dictate policy and programs approved by Parliament.<br /><br />The exhibitions timing was just convenient to deflect attention from the uncomfortable questions being raised about the Youth Wage Subsidy.<br /><br />Unfortunately the trend of the right of the individual superseding the right of the collective (read 250 000 odd unemployed youth and their households that would benefit from the Youth Wage Subsidy) rears it's ugly head again...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-83489089060861845822012-05-23T08:55:36.484+02:002012-05-23T08:55:36.484+02:00Tday it is my turn to apologise- it seems I was mi...Tday it is my turn to apologise- it seems I was misinformed about the true identity of the owner of the penis in the crutch in Mr Mabulu's painting. I heartily apologise and have now learnt not to obtain my art reviews from a certain local publication any longer. Sorry!Karen McKeenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-71636231572903727682012-05-22T23:57:15.451+02:002012-05-22T23:57:15.451+02:00Ayesha I cannot thank you enough for the informati...Ayesha I cannot thank you enough for the information you have provided.<br /><br />You have restored the integrity of the original post and now it all makes sense again.<br /><br />Thankfully Mabulu has explained what he intended with the depiction of Zuma and there can be no question about whether it is Zuma or not.<br /><br />Excellent. I feel somewhat vindicated for thinking it was Zuma in the first place.<br /><br />Thanks Ayesha!<br /><br />RidwanRidwanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16758153484699728802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-6167303836570867592012-05-22T23:28:54.498+02:002012-05-22T23:28:54.498+02:00It IS JZ in Ayanda's painting. See interview w...It IS JZ in Ayanda's painting. See interview with artist here: http://worldart.co.za/uploads/media/CT%20review8Nov2010.pdf<br />and <br />http://worldart.co.za/news/Ayeshanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-30757696309405431422012-05-22T23:03:26.099+02:002012-05-22T23:03:26.099+02:00Hi there Andy:
Thanks kindly for adding your voic...Hi there Andy:<br /><br />Thanks kindly for adding your voice here. I think there are a lot of folks who agree with you. <br /><br />You are right that all of us should consider the consequences of what we do and what it may mean for others in our expression of free speech.<br /><br />But I still think that the right to free speech should be protected against any censorship.<br /><br />**********<br /><br />Hi Tinus:<br /><br />I am still confused by how the ANC sought to protect the struggle song in question as a matter of free speech and yet the Murray case very differently.<br /><br />This is, however, exactly the problem: the politicization of the right to free speech is a dangerous and slippery slope.<br /><br />Thanks you for taking time to comment here.<br /><br />*********<br />Hi Tertius:<br /><br />I absolutely agree with you that we cannot be selective when applying the constitutional right to free speech.<br /><br />The only limit is where speech is used to incite violence through hatred.<br /><br />A friend of mine showed me several tweets today where folks are calling for Murray to be stoned or killed.<br /><br />This is illegal and unacceptable and there should be a law enforcement effort to track those folks down: such commentary is definitely hate speech.<br /><br />It will be interesting to see how the ANC proves that The Spear is hate speech.<br /><br />I don't see it but then again the court will be in session on Thursday.<br /><br />Thanks for your comment.<br /><br />Onward!<br />RidwanRidwanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16758153484699728802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36009958.post-90504114085707416072012-05-22T22:09:42.220+02:002012-05-22T22:09:42.220+02:00So the ANC is foaming at the mouth because a White...So the ANC is foaming at the mouth because a White artists dared to paint a potrait of the President with his shlong hanging out - taking the manner in which JZ behaves - it is no wonder that people see him in this way!We live in a democracy, with a diverse culture and the ANC must realise that they cannot throw a tantrum every time they do not agree with something.Why no outcry when Mabulu'painting was "discovered"<br />Complex African culture cannot be selective in what is acceptable at certain times and what is not when it does not suit politicians - this borders on plain stupidity!<br />Eish!<br />TertiusTertiusnoreply@blogger.com